Firstly let me apologize for my prior double post. It had been over 12 hours and I didn't see my comment go through so I made another.
Re: Madison
This is still a bunch of talking past one another.
Let's start by just taking a step back from the claim that "Jesus didn't exist", and approach the issues step by step in terms of what interpretations of various texts are plausible and not.
"I am also perplexed by Lataster’s apparent obsession with “hypothetical sources”."
"Hypothetical sources", such as Q, are used to claim that certain features of writings can only be explained by the existence of some older shared tradition or source. This is, in essentially, every case, not true. In fact, most of what scholars claim to be "evidence of a lost shared source" is much more easily explained as direct literary dependence between extant sources.
"After all, Luke tells us that many accounts had been written about the life of Jesus."
Certainly. And what the evidence shows is that the prior accounts Luke was referring to are Mark, Matthew, Paul, and possibly even John, as well as other potential non-canonical derivatives of Mark.
"When we speculate about the causes of things, we should always try to keep our speculations simple."
This is exactly true, and this is exactly where mainstream scholarship falls on its face.
When you actually get down to the details you see that the mainstream explanations are convoluted and impossible. Take Q for example. Q sounds "simple" on the surface, but when you actually work out all the details you see that is an impossible Rube Golderberg machine.
The far simpler explanation is simply that Luke used Mark and Matthew and gave importance to Mark over Matthew because he knew that Mark was the older source. That's actually a very simple explanation and it fully explains Luke, as Goodacre himself states. Trying to account for Q is impossible. It requires a whole series of highly unlikely events, as I state in the link:
"If Q is what so many scholars assume it is – the earliest account of Jesus, then Q would had to have existed as a collection of documents for somewhere between 40 and 90 years without anyone making reference to it, then both Matthew and Luke would had to have independently gotten possession of copies of it, they would then had to have both integrated it into the Markan narrative in exactly the same way across dozens of scenes, and then they would both had to have lost all of the Q material such that it completely disappeared from the historical record. Note that there are not even any accounts from early Christian scholars of the second through fourth century that give any hint of the existence of Q. This would mean that, essentially, the most important document(s) of Christianity went unreferenced by all but two people, and both of those people lost their copies of the most important document(s) of Christianity."
And the reality is that Q is totally unnecessary to begin with.
And let's just get to a basic summary here.
Lets take my explanation for the development of the Gospels:
1) Some set of Paul's letters are produced prior to the First Jewish-Roman War.
2) After the war and the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, some follower of Paul makes use of Paul's letters to write an allegory about the destruction of the Temple. The Jesus character in that allegory is based directly on Paul himself. The character of Jesus matches the character of Paul. The associated of Jesus match the associates of Paul. The teachings of Jesus match the teachings of Paul. This is all because the writer of Mark is uses Paul's letters and is actually paraphrasing directly from them, as can be demonstrated.
The scenes in the Gospel of Mark are ALL based on scriptural references, largely following the story of Elijah and Elisha. Many are also references to scriptures about God's punishment of the Jews, which the author relates to the recent war.
3) Once this story is written copies of it are made. The Gospels of Matthew, Luke, and John all descend from the Markan story. Ever non-canonical account also descends from the Markan story. This is easily demonstrated with clear evidence.
There is nothing at all implausible about this scenario. In fact it is far simpler explanation of the evidence than the complex theories conjured up by historicists about "oral traditions" and lost sources. Now, we haven't necessarily proven that Jesus doesn't exist here, but that's not the point. The point is that this explanation for the development of the Gospels is demonstrable with evidence and it is also not accepted by mainstream scholars, despite the fact that it is actually a much more straight forward and plausible explanation of the evidence.
And let's be clear about the case I lay out. he case I lay out is that the Markan narrative is an entirely postwar narrative that is only relevant in light of the war. No aspect of Mark make sense in a pre-war context. The whole narrative was entirely fabricated after the war. Also note that this type of prophetic allegorical writing, especially in relation to wars, was extremely common in Rome at this time. There are DOZENS of examples of stories like this, which everyone agrees are all entirely fabricated, just like Mark is. The story of Publius from the Book of Marvels is a prime example.
The reason it isn't accepted is, of course, because in this scenario none of the information in the Gospels is traced back to reliable sources about a real person. But the reality is that we can 100% prove that the Gospel of Mark isn't based on information about a real person, because every aspect of Mark can be traced back to Paul's letters and the Jewish scriptures.
There is no "real Jesus" in Mark, and once you realize that there is no real Jesus in Mark it is inescapable that there is no real Jesus in any of the Gospels, because its clear that they are all just copies of Mark with additional fabricated flourishes. This is the reality that mainstream scholars have been fighting against for decades now. The Gospels are all just copies of Mark, and Mark is a fictional story. It really is that simple.
And if the Gospels don't contain a single ounce of information that is based on the life of a real Jesus person, well then....
Firstly let me apologize for my prior double post. It had been over 12 hours and I didn't see my comment go through so I made another.
Re: Madison
This is still a bunch of talking past one another.
Let's start by just taking a step back from the claim that "Jesus didn't exist", and approach the issues step by step in terms of what interpretations of various texts are plausible and not.
"I am also perplexed by Lataster’s apparent obsession with “hypothetical sources”."
"Hypothetical sources", such as Q, are used to claim that certain features of writings can only be explained by the existence of some older shared tradition or source. This is, in essentially, every case, not true. In fact, most of what scholars claim to be "evidence of a lost shared source" is much more easily explained as direct literary dependence between extant sources.
"After all, Luke tells us that many accounts had been written about the life of Jesus."
Certainly. And what the evidence shows is that the prior accounts Luke was referring to are Mark, Matthew, Paul, and possibly even John, as well as other potential non-canonical derivatives of Mark.
"When we speculate about the causes of things, we should always try to keep our speculations simple."
This is exactly true, and this is exactly where mainstream scholarship falls on its face.
When you actually get down to the details you see that the mainstream explanations are convoluted and impossible. Take Q for example. Q sounds "simple" on the surface, but when you actually work out all the details you see that is an impossible Rube Golderberg machine.
I address that issue here: http://www.decipheringthegospels.com/on_q.html
The far simpler explanation is simply that Luke used Mark and Matthew and gave importance to Mark over Matthew because he knew that Mark was the older source. That's actually a very simple explanation and it fully explains Luke, as Goodacre himself states. Trying to account for Q is impossible. It requires a whole series of highly unlikely events, as I state in the link:
"If Q is what so many scholars assume it is – the earliest account of Jesus, then Q would had to have existed as a collection of documents for somewhere between 40 and 90 years without anyone making reference to it, then both Matthew and Luke would had to have independently gotten possession of copies of it, they would then had to have both integrated it into the Markan narrative in exactly the same way across dozens of scenes, and then they would both had to have lost all of the Q material such that it completely disappeared from the historical record. Note that there are not even any accounts from early Christian scholars of the second through fourth century that give any hint of the existence of Q. This would mean that, essentially, the most important document(s) of Christianity went unreferenced by all but two people, and both of those people lost their copies of the most important document(s) of Christianity."
And the reality is that Q is totally unnecessary to begin with.
And let's just get to a basic summary here.
Lets take my explanation for the development of the Gospels:
1) Some set of Paul's letters are produced prior to the First Jewish-Roman War.
2) After the war and the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, some follower of Paul makes use of Paul's letters to write an allegory about the destruction of the Temple. The Jesus character in that allegory is based directly on Paul himself. The character of Jesus matches the character of Paul. The associated of Jesus match the associates of Paul. The teachings of Jesus match the teachings of Paul. This is all because the writer of Mark is uses Paul's letters and is actually paraphrasing directly from them, as can be demonstrated.
The scenes in the Gospel of Mark are ALL based on scriptural references, largely following the story of Elijah and Elisha. Many are also references to scriptures about God's punishment of the Jews, which the author relates to the recent war.
3) Once this story is written copies of it are made. The Gospels of Matthew, Luke, and John all descend from the Markan story. Ever non-canonical account also descends from the Markan story. This is easily demonstrated with clear evidence.
There is nothing at all implausible about this scenario. In fact it is far simpler explanation of the evidence than the complex theories conjured up by historicists about "oral traditions" and lost sources. Now, we haven't necessarily proven that Jesus doesn't exist here, but that's not the point. The point is that this explanation for the development of the Gospels is demonstrable with evidence and it is also not accepted by mainstream scholars, despite the fact that it is actually a much more straight forward and plausible explanation of the evidence.
And let's be clear about the case I lay out. he case I lay out is that the Markan narrative is an entirely postwar narrative that is only relevant in light of the war. No aspect of Mark make sense in a pre-war context. The whole narrative was entirely fabricated after the war. Also note that this type of prophetic allegorical writing, especially in relation to wars, was extremely common in Rome at this time. There are DOZENS of examples of stories like this, which everyone agrees are all entirely fabricated, just like Mark is. The story of Publius from the Book of Marvels is a prime example.
The reason it isn't accepted is, of course, because in this scenario none of the information in the Gospels is traced back to reliable sources about a real person. But the reality is that we can 100% prove that the Gospel of Mark isn't based on information about a real person, because every aspect of Mark can be traced back to Paul's letters and the Jewish scriptures.
There is no "real Jesus" in Mark, and once you realize that there is no real Jesus in Mark it is inescapable that there is no real Jesus in any of the Gospels, because its clear that they are all just copies of Mark with additional fabricated flourishes. This is the reality that mainstream scholars have been fighting against for decades now. The Gospels are all just copies of Mark, and Mark is a fictional story. It really is that simple.
And if the Gospels don't contain a single ounce of information that is based on the life of a real Jesus person, well then....